[wp-forums] FW: Using the forums for contacting people outside of the forums

Mon Jan 27 15:29:02 UTC 2014

Mika,

Firstly, thanks for the reply.

So, you say that you chose to draw the line there for YEARS but how does anyone else know that there is any line there at all? - As I mentioned, there is NOTHING in the welcome post that you consistently redirect users to in order to tell them what the rules of the forum are.  If you don't publish these rules then how do you expect people to abide by them, and if you do have a situation like you had then you have nothing to simply redirect the user to in order to say "actually check here, here's the rules".  I may have only joined the site last week, how do I know the history and how does the fact that you have been doing this for years without that rule in side your head being documented somewhere.

I get that there are genuine cases of users being crazy ;) - But there are also many genuine cases where an innocent user and either another community member trying to help, or a plugin author who is hindered from doing simply trying to fix an issue.  I can understand why there could be a rule in place which hinders people from posting in their email address details etc; but on the flip side I can also understand someone trying to genuinely help someone and simply wanting to have some access to that persons environment without sharing it on a public forum (but to fully continue communication and resolution of that issue back on the forum).  If there were some kind of private message functionality on the forum, then great, that would solve it right?  - But without having any way to talk to someone to get sensitive information to continue an investigation, I can see why an occurrence like you are discussing occurred.

I have to tell you that I don't agree with what you've said about being totally open with your comments over this DL.  The welcome rules clearly outline that if you want to discuss an item of the forum or raise a complaint about it, then this is the place to do it.  In my view, if Moderators should have a totally seperate line of communication if you want to start talking about specific users and dealing with specific issues that you're having in how to moderate.  I totally wasn't expecting to see the types of emails that I get after reading the description of what this DL is documented as its purpose; which should really be for 'users' to air their views of the forum and feedback on issues that occurred on their posts that they want to reach out and get some further support / escalation from.

Plus you're also forgetting the comment about the poor OP who just wanted his issue solved and after the moderators action has resulted in simply closing his whole support ticket down entirely.  What did he do wrong? - Why should he now be expected to re-post his issue.  If you really had a problem with a contributor then you should only be taking action against that user, whether some kind of warning, a ban, timeout, or removing replies from the conversation to put it back to a pre-argument state to 'reset' the course of support.

Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 07:06:29 -0800> From: ipstenu at halfelf.org
> To: wp-forums at lists.automattic.com
> Subject: Re: [wp-forums] Using the forums for contacting people outside of the forums
> 
> Mike, we know it's public, however I think in this case we're okay.
> 
> I get what you're saying, but look at it from our end too, eh? We have 
> to draw a line somewhere, and we chose to draw it there for YEARS. We 
> have guidelines that explain this as best we can, we're trying to be as 
> light handed as possible, but we also need to have each other backs for 
> support, because I gotta tell you, users be crazy and mean and abusive 
> to us ALL THE TIME.
> 
> We've not quoted whole emails, we've said "hey, so and so has been 
> harassing me with comments like this." And that is what THIS LIST is 
> for. We are public with when we block people and report here. We are 
> public with our suspicious activity reports (hey, so and so is acting 
> like a sock puppet!) because we need to be able to have open 
> conversation about these things.
> 
> Locking everything down to just a few people has been pointed at as 
> being exclusionary and rude. So what was said here was restrained. I 
> think if someone actually took this to court or tried to sue anyone, 
> it'd be laughed out. And I actually do have practical experience with 
> that :)
> 
> Mike Turner wrote:
> >
> > Sorry that I feel I have to interject my two sense into this whole 
> > conversation to provide a "User perspective"
> >
> > I think you guys forget that this mailing list is a 'public forum' and 
> > as such you need to be very careful about what you put in writing and 
> > 'publish' to the world.
> >
> > I've been having great amusement at watching 'what goes on behind the 
> > scenes' and now I have seen you make an actual libel statement written 
> > in public accusing a member of Woocommerce of writing to Mark with:  
> > "I'm a f*ucking moron!""
> >
> > Now I'm not lawyer but I know a defamation when I see it. You have 
> > just written an email and sent it to "how many non-mods" publicly 
> > accusing a Woocommerce Ninja of sending you an email like that.  Do 
> > you have any proof of this? Are you prepared for the consequence of 1) 
> > A potential legal situation   or 2) One of probably many 'bloggers' 
> > (don't forget who uses this software) who will take this email thread 
> > and make it totally public via their Wordpress blogs, Facebook and 
> > Twitter or 3) both.  How embarrassed do you think WordPress as an 
> > organisation is going to come off after that?
> >
> > On to the actual topic at hand about posting contact emails in 
> > forums.  Nowhere does it advise of this in your 'rules' which I have 
> > been told myself seem to be what everyone must abide by does it seem 
> > to say that people can't put contact details in.  In fact the "rules" 
> > only mention 'Contact Information' in the context of a USER who is 
> > asking for paid help and in which case if they SHOULD provide their 
> > contact details and then the thread would be closed.   Where is there 
> > any mention about a 'helper' posting their contact details to ask them 
> > to contact them with some information to try to resolve a problem for 
> > them (for free)?  Perhaps you guys need to mention something in your 
> > 'Rules' before you start applying a rule that isn't defined any where.
> >
> > Now thinking about the poor OP who raised a support question, where 
> > does he stand in all of this?  He raised a ticket like he should, has 
> > someone else try to help and you guys step in, have a bit of a row 
> > with the person trying to help and CLOSE his support ticket down 
> > completely.  Way to go! - poor guy.  If that happened to me I would be 
> > PISSED!
> >
> >
> >>
> >> From: otto at ottodestruct.com
> >> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 01:05:20 -0600
> >> To: wp-forums at lists.automattic.com
> >> Subject: Re: [wp-forums] Using the forums for contacting people 
> >> outside of the forums
> >>
> >> Thanks Mark, I received your forward.
> >>
> >> I think, in the long run, that it is better for us to direct users to
> >> official support channels (when they exist), and to take every effort
> >> to avoid the appearance of possibly illegitimate people asking for
> >> direct contact info, even if they are legit *and* even if we know that
> >> in advance.
> >>
> >> It is obviously a bad idea for a user to give out any form of
> >> credentials directly. But, this is also necessary to solve one-on-one
> >> problems, from time to time. Our job should not be to make a
> >> "whitelist" of legit users, but to rely on the information submitted
> >> by plugin and theme developers. If the plugin or theme author tag
> >> appears on a reply, then it definitively comes from the original code
> >> submissions to our system, and then I'm perfectly okay with giving
> >> those developers some leeway by providing an official email or forum
> >> address for direct help.
> >>
> >> Outside of that, we should indeed be careful and err on the side of
> >> users who might not know better.
> >>
> >> *In no case should any official developer or support person ever ask a
> >> user to post their own email address to the world.*
> >>
> >> I'll email the parties involved (in the morning) and sort it all out.
> >> But, the bottom line is we do indeed want official support people on
> >> our forums, but we want them to be upfront "official" and recognized
> >> as such. When I ask somebody to email me, I use my own wordpress.org
> >> address for exactly that reason. I don't ask people to give their
> >> email address and leave them open to random claims of official-ness
> >> from anybody who might reply to them.
> >>
> >> This was handled correctly, as far as it I can see that it was done.
> >> I'll deal with the rest. :)
> >>
> >> -Otto
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark 
> >> Ratledge<mark at markratledge.com>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Otto, Thanks, the email was from a bogus address, but I'll forward 
> >>> it so you see the IP. I'm drafting a firm (but not angry) email to 
> >>> Woo management. Right after the email, it appeared that he was 
> >>> trying to penny ante DDOS me, so I blocked his IP range. -- Mark
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 26, 2014, at 9:26 PM, Otto wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorry, I misunderstood the email that was posted. I see it now. 
> >>>> I'll handle it.
> >>>
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> >>
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> 
> -- 
> Mika A Epstein (aka Ipstenu)
> http://ipstenu.org | http://halfelf.org
> 
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