[wp-hackers] AJAX

Elliott Franklin Cable mail at avxw.com
Thu Jun 29 20:45:36 GMT 2006

My bad. I always associate the two. Lets say... what I've been  
talking about as AJAX is really live interaction with the user, minus  
a pageload. User input to the server, output from the server to the  
user, with no loading of a new page - how's that?

On Jun 29, 2006, at 12:13 PM, David Chait wrote:
> Just to add to this, many of the examples of 'decoration' are DOM 
> +JS, and
> NOT Ajax.  Using JS for 'decoration' is extremely useful.  Effects and
> animation make the interface richer, easier to understand, draw the  
> eye to
> important elements, etc.
> Also, a portion of what is called Ajax these days is really Ajah  
> (that is,
> html body, not repackaging everything into xml...).  There's  
> actually a
> handful of different approaches to using JS for client-server  
> exchange, so
> Ajax really is over-used even within its 'sphere'...
> But after that exchange, it's back to plain JS to play with the  
> elements,
> plus basic HTML, CSS, graphics, etc., to make things interesting when
> 'static'.  The exchange is only one piece of the equation of JS  
> interfaces,
> and yes it's the part that makes it Ajax or Ajah or Jah or whatever...
> But, let's not accidentally label JS effects as Ajax... ;)
> -d
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Computer Guru" <computerguru at neosmart.net>
> To: <wp-hackers at lists.automattic.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 2:03 PM
> Subject: RE: [wp-hackers] AJAX
> I have to disagree with you entirely then...
> Decoration most certainly isn't useless, and every point you make  
> is 100%
> valid - but I don't see why you need AJAX to do it.
> Certainly - the widgets plugin would be a lot less comfortable to use
> without AJAX, but how much harder are drop-down boxes with numbers  
> in them
> that determine the order (the same forums are ordered in IPB,  
> phpBB, etc.)
> Decoration doesn't need AJAX: it never has, and it never will  
> solely rely
> on it.
> Some of the best designed sites don't use AJAX - I never said  
> design wasn't
> important, nor did I ever think that, but I don't think _AJAX_ is  
> important
> for design.
> CPanel, Helm, Plesk, whatnot: none use AJAX, yet some are easy to  
> use while
> others aren't. Nothing to do with AJAX, but everything to do with  
> how much
> time the Devs wanted to spend on planning the design and making it  
> easy to
> use.
> But I _do_ see your point, very well too. Look at Digg.com: the  
> only reason
> it's more popular than the other user-provided and rated services  
> before it
> is that it makes it all easier: no need to reload a page to "digg" and
> item: just click as many buttons as you want. (compare that to  
> ratings on
> Slashdot - eugh!)
> So, yeah, Decoration isn't useless, but 99.9% of the time using  
> AJAX for
> decoration is.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wp-hackers-bounces at lists.automattic.com
> [mailto:wp-hackers-bounces at lists.automattic.com] On Behalf Of Elliott
> Franklin Cable
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 8:53 PM
> To: wp-hackers at lists.automattic.com
> Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] AJAX
> Yeah... i actually must say I do stray a TAD toward the use-ajax  
> extreme, if
> only for two reasons:
> 1) I disagree with you - I'd say that in 99.9% of cases, AJAX is  
> 40-50%
> useless. Decoration is *not* useless - a good user experience is  
> essential
> to any application, any site, any... anything. I used to host on
> MediaTemple - then switched to DreamHost because they were cheaper.  
> As soon
> as I got in, I looked at the control panel and though *euck* - but  
> I put up
> with it, hell it was cheaper and everything else in the features  
> seemed
> better. Guess what? The support SUCKED. At least, compared to (mt)'s
> unofficial 10-minute rule. I go back to mediatemple, notice how well
> designed and clean the control panel is - easy to find anything,  
> fun to
> use - and the overall hosting experience was BETTER! Ever used  
> Plesk? It is
> TORTURE. Because it is so horribly designed and laid out. My point  
> is that
> good design, an *enjoyable* interface is not only AN element of a good
> service - it is an _ESSENTIAL_ element of a good service! So using  
> AJAX for
> decoration isn't not only a bad thing, it can be a good thing (this  
> works
> the other way around, however - you can use too much AJAX, make the  
> user
> sick of it, and WORSEN their experience; and again, AJAX is only an  
> element,
> and a relatively new one at that, of that elusive creature _good  
> design_)
> 2) I am a Rails developer. Adding AJAX effects in rails is like  
> wearing a
> different pair of pants, you know, the cool jeans, instead of those  
> old
> stuffy khakis. No extra work really, just a decision.
> The only real PROBLEM with AJAX is when people use it and *DON'T*  
> provide
> obvious alternatives. It's the rule of developers, if you use a  
> technology
> to make a task easier for your user, make sure that task can be  
> done (albeit
> a bit less easy, perhaps) WITHOUT the technology.
> When people fail to do this, AJAX is blamed. It's a techie case of  
> 'Guns
> don't shoot people, people shoot people', nothing more.
> On Jun 29, 2006, at 9:36 AM, Computer Guru wrote:
>> It would help if you replied directly to the messages ;P
>> But yes, I agree. AJAX isn't the be-all end-all it's made out to be,
>> but nevertheless, it is the _only_ way the web can represent a true
>> application platform.
>> AJAX provides a (theoretically) seamless way for data-streaming of
>> GET/POST without refreshing or reloading a page - but in 99.9% of the
>> circumstances it's 100% un-necessary.
>> Look at where AJAX is used in WP (fading boxes for messages, and the
>> widgets bar - nothing else AFAIK).
>> The first is useless: pretty, but useless The second is broken in  
>> many
>> browsers - rendering it useless.
>>> I don't understand people like this >.<
>>> Sure, AJAX isn't *everything* people crack it up to be, but...
>>> it's not useless, it's still pretty cool, it's worth integrating  
>>> in a
>>> tasteful measure... i jsut don't understand people who fall in with
>>> either extreme on most subjects....
>>> On Jun 29, 2006, at 8:44 AM, Robert Deaton wrote:
>>>> Sounds like more useless Web 2.0 OMGAJAX bloat to me.
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