[wp-testers] Re: wp-testers Digest, Vol 37, Issue 150

[Paul Dale]

If you use Dean Robinsons "Fluency" admin-interface, there is no scrolling
to see the options. And, it's better looking than the default.

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 11:59 PM, <wp-testers-request at lists.automattic.com>
wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: AW: Write Page (Annie)
>   2. Re: Center (Matt Mullenweg)
>   3. Re: AW: Write Page (Michael Bazeley)
>   4. Re: 2.5 RC2 where are post slugs gone? (Francesc Hervada-Sala)
>   5. Re: AW: Write Page (deliciousdays)
>   6. youtube shortcode (px)
>   7. Re: AW: Write Page (Matt Mullenweg)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:24:22 -0700
> From: Annie <lsandrsn at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [wp-testers] AW: Write Page
> To: wp-testers at lists.automattic.com
> Message-ID: <96998E00-BCB5-484C-8EF2-7F58609CF421 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> I got the joke as I'm sure others did.
>
> But joking doesn't hide or lessen the issue we're discussing.
>
> In my opinion, this is a major flaw. And no, "living with it" isn't
> going to make me like it.
>
>
>
> ~ Annie
>
> (Oh - and I don't eat omelets, or eggs for that matter. ;-) I'm
> allergic . . .)
>
> On Mar 27, 2008, at 9:49 PM, Matt Mullenweg wrote:
>
> > Annie wrote:
> >> And I completely agree with Dawnne here. It's totally not the
> >> scrolling that's the issue - it's the user friendliness of often
> >> used fields.
> >
> > Sorry, was just attempting a joke.
> >
> >> Like the old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
> >
> > I completely agree with that, but you've got to break a few eggs to
> > make an omelet.
> >
> >> I do like most of the other changes and upgrades but this
> >> one . . . it's counter-productive and makes the whole design feel
> >> broken to me.
> >
> > I think for a chunk of the people who currently dislike it, living
> > with it for a few posts will grow to like it.
> >
> > Others may never take to it, but that's okay, WP has always done
> > what it considers best in core, avoided unnecessary options, and
> > allowed people with differing opinions about how things should work
> > to express that through plugins. We also watch usage of plugins
> > closely, and might change the direction of the software based on
> > something with grassroots popularity, in fact many of the major
> > features in WP the past few years have been a result of this.
> >
> > --
> > Matt Mullenweg
> > http://ma.tt | http://automattic.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > wp-testers mailing list
> > wp-testers at lists.automattic.com
> > http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-testers
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:33:22 -0700
> From: Matt Mullenweg <m at mullenweg.com>
> Subject: Re: [wp-testers] Center
> To: wp-testers at lists.automattic.com
> Message-ID: <47EC8322.3080602 at mullenweg.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Austin Matzko wrote:
> > I know Happy Cog did testing and observation with the old design and
> > paper mockups of the new, but are there any plans for the firm to go
> > back and do the same testing with a working version of the 2.5 design,
> > as actually implemented?
>
> The interface has been mostly functional in trunk for a few months now,
> so yes, it has happened already. The work didn't finish when the PSDs
> were tossed over the fence, in many ways it just started.
>
> --
> Matt Mullenweg
> http://ma.tt | http://automattic.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:39:40 -0700
> From: "Michael Bazeley" <mbazeley at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [wp-testers] AW: Write Page
> To: wp-testers at lists.automattic.com
> Message-ID:
>        <bc26abda0803272239u250f2665x26d0f2df8f79e075 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> >
> >
> >
> > I mean if I'm in the write post section why would I even be thinking
> about
> > managing any of those things?  My current thoughts are on making a POST,
> > thus I want to see the options and selections for making the post, why
> > make
> > the user have to scroll to make these selections when you have this
> whole
> > sidebar area on the right that could be utilized for efficiency?  Just
> > because it's open source doesn't mean you have to make it like pulling
> > teeth.  We are your users, we are your testers, and we are trying to
> help
> > you develop this to be user friendly, and the current horizontal design
> is
> > not user friendly.  In fact I haven't seen a single post praising the
> > design
> > of the page we are discussing, all I have read are suggestions for
> > improving
> > it.
> >
>
> Obviously, the discussion around this is not going to stop 2.5 or provoke
> a
> change soon, if ever. And I imagine that some people would like the
> discussion to just go away so they can focus on the outstanding bugs. Fair
> enough. But I have to agree that moving the categories box downpage and
> replacing it with non-post-related links jumped out at me immediately when
> I
> first used 2.5. I've been using it daily for a couple of weeks now, and
> I'm
> still annoyed by it (despite Matt prediction). I suppose what a lot of the
> critics of this change want to know is WHY change. And I think that goes
> beyond just saying that Happy Cog knows what it's doing and did lots of
> testing. What's the logic behind the change? Because it really feels like
> an
> inefficient and illogical use of that important page's space.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michael
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:59:17 +0100
> From: Francesc Hervada-Sala <francesc at hervada.org>
> Subject: Re: [wp-testers] 2.5 RC2 where are post slugs gone?
> To: wp-testers at lists.automattic.com
> Message-ID: <200803280659.17503.francesc at hervada.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="utf-8"
>
> Am Donnerstag, 27. März 2008 22:50:20 schrieb Ryan Boren:
> > The permalink editor isn't shown if you are not using "pretty"
> > permalinks.  There's a ticket about this in trac.
> >
> > http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/6364
> >
> > I'll look into a fix.
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> Ryan: thanks a lot for this information, now is it all clear!
>
> Please do not let this as it is for the 2.5 release. I was very upset
> yesterday, because after a new installation the post slug was not shown
> any
> more. I am sure other people will have this trouble, too. One expects the
> permalink is at that place, and suddenly it is not there any more. (To
> your
> information: I use the post slugs in my cross-references-plugin as an
> alternative post ID when setting cross-references from one post to
> another.
> This has nothing to do whith permalinks, but uses the post slug, too.)
>
> I propose this: A new option "Show pretty permalinks on post edit page".
> This
> can only be enabled if the blog uses pretty permalinks. If it is enabled,
> one
> sees the javascript-permalink under the title, if it is disabled, then the
> slgudiv is not hidden.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Francesc
> Username: hervada
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:59:12 +0100
> From: deliciousdays <oliver.seidel at deliciousdays.com>
> Subject: Re: [wp-testers] AW: Write Page
> To: wp-testers at lists.automattic.com
> Message-ID: <47EC8930.4090200 at deliciousdays.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> +1
>
> Annie wrote:
> > And I completely agree with Dawnne here. It's totally not the
> > scrolling that's the issue - it's the user friendliness of often used
> > fields.
> >
> > Like the old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
> >
> > I do like most of the other changes and upgrades but this one . . .
> > it's counter-productive and makes the whole design feel broken to me.
> >
> > ~ Annie
> >
> > On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:45 PM, Dawnne Gee wrote:
> >
> >> Erg. That response doesn't address what many of us are perceiving to
> >> be the
> >> problem. Does it take that much time to scroll? Of course not! (For
> >> those
> >> who have a device that scrolls). The assertion can be summed up,
> >> "Along with
> >> your WordPress 2.5 Upgrade, we strongly recommend the immediate
> >> purchase of
> >> a pointing device with a scroll wheel, as well as a USB hub if such is
> >> necessary." So much for the "free" in Free! Upgrade!
> >>
> >> And one's ability to scroll is not THE POINT! The point is, something
> >> (several things) that used to be readily available no longer are. Sure,
> >> they're still there, but the ease of use and fluidity that some of us
> >> fell
> >> in love with (and migrated our blogs from blogger, typepad, et al to
> >> use),
> >> will be gone with this "upgrade".
> >>
> >> It's kind of like going to your favorite restaurant, ordering a New!
> >> Better!
> >> No Hormones! steak, and the waitress brings you a plate with some
> >> rice and
> >> veggies on it, and tells you the steak will be served later....on the
> >> table
> >> behind you.
> >>
> >> I don't think you'd eat there very long, but the fact that you have
> >> many of
> >> us who aren't willing to go migrate our blogs off to another system
> >> really
> >> shouldn't be interpreted as a request to treat us like that restaurant.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>
> >> Matt Moore wrote:
> >>> The new way is terrible.  Every single post has a category or a tag,
> >>> and
> >>> putting the input for them off the screen makes for too many posts in
> >>> 'uncategorized.'
> >>
> >> I'm going to buy you one of those little new-fangled mouses with the
> >> wheels in the middle.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> wp-testers mailing list
> >> wp-testers at lists.automattic.com
> >> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-testers
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > wp-testers mailing list
> > wp-testers at lists.automattic.com
> > http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-testers
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:59:40 -0700
> From: px <px at ns1.net>
> Subject: [wp-testers] youtube shortcode
> To: wp-testers at lists.automattic.com
> Message-ID: <47EC894C.9080007 at ns1.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Matt Mullenweg wrote:
> > The most popular shortcode we've done thus far is a youtube one, which
> > is like [youtube http://youtube.com/?v=aoeuaoue]. This gets expanded,
> After reading that on this list, I immediately tried a youtube test post
> on my blog running 2.5rc2.  it didn't embed. :(
>
> A search led me to here
> http://faq.wordpress.com/2006/07/29/how-do-i-post-a-youtube-video/
> but that makes me think it's only for WordPress.com blogs.
>
> any chance this shortcode will make it into the WordPress trunk for
> general users?
>
> I was kind of hoping the new add video feature would have been like that.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:30:51 -0700
> From: Matt Mullenweg <m at mullenweg.com>
> Subject: Re: [wp-testers] AW: Write Page
> To: wp-testers at lists.automattic.com
> Message-ID: <47EC828B.703 at mullenweg.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Daniel Schoonover wrote:
> > Wow that was a professional answer there...
>
> Sorry, my following posts expand on the points a bit more.
>
> > The designers screwed up on the
> > write page, which was pretty much perfect the way it was.
>
> I don't think anyone who has done support for WP or trained other people
> on its usage could claim the write page was pretty much perfect,
> actually it was pretty awful. We got used to it, and comfortable with
> it, but just because it was widely used doesn't mean it was right.
>
> > I'm sorry to
> > break the bad news but the current design of the "Write Post/Page" is
> > completely counter-intuitive to the user.
>
> Saying "I think it's counter-intuitive" is very different from saying
> "users think this is counter-intuitive." To say the latter, you need a
> much larger sample size than yourself or a few people on this
> self-selected list.
>
> The first I could totally agree with, the second I wouldn't.
>
> > Who's idea was it to waste the space that used to be for Category
> selections
> > with
>
> Whitespace is not wasted space. Filling every possible centimeter with
> stuff does not make it better, creates a lot of cognitive load, and is
> frustrating even for savvy users.
>
> There is lots of research on this:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_theory
>
> For example, people, especially unsophisticated consumers, tend to buy
> products with more buttons because they're perceived to be better, but
> their tested happiness with said products is lower over time. They would
> have been better off and happier getting the less complex thing, even
> though they would swear to the grave they bought the right stereo.
>
> I have never claimed to be an expert on any of this, but I know enough
> to know what I don't know, and hopefully enough to be able to find
> someone who can do a much better job. This is the basis of my whole
> adult life, actually.
>
> > I mean if I'm in the write post section why would I even be thinking
> about
> > managing any of those things?  My current thoughts are on making a POST,
> > thus I want to see the options and selections for making the post, why
> make
> > the user have to scroll to make these selections when you have this
> whole
> > sidebar area on the right that could be utilized for efficiency?
>
> Assumptions here:
>
> 1. Because I don't think about those things, no one else things about
> those things.
> 2. The space could be more efficiency used by something else, for
> example categories.
> 3. Things in the sidebar are more noticed than things in the main column.
>
> I would like to note as one of the people behind the previous layout of
> the WP write page, there was a time when I would have agreed with those
> assumptions completely. My mind has been changed.
>
> Some of my assumptions now are that:
>
> 1. Categories, particularly the new layout, need more horizontal space
> than is available in the sidebar. When we add things like "suggested
> categories" this will become more obvious.
> 2. Things like tags are more commonly used than categories, and we can't
> squeeze those in the sidebar too.
> 3. Things in the sidebar get missed unless you know to look there, even
> when they're above the "fold" and you don't have to scroll to see them.
> 4. The stuff in the sidebar now -- saving, previewing, status,
> timestamps -- are the most important things to put there.
>
> > Just
> > because it's open source doesn't mean you have to make it like pulling
> > teeth.
>
> As someone who got 5 teeth pulled on Monday, I take offense at that. :)
>
> >  We are your users, we are your testers, and we are trying to help
> > you develop this to be user friendly, and the current horizontal design
> is
> > not user friendly.
>
> Which is the whole reason we solicit feedback, to have as much
> information, even if it's anecdotal, to synthesize and make the best
> decisions possible, which I believe we are doing there, but by
> suggesting what you think is what everyone thinks you're forcing me to
> take a position of disagreeing with you, when I would rather just
> collate your feedback with all the others and try to make the best
> decision possible.
>
> > In fact I haven't seen a single post praising the design
> > of the page we are discussing, all I have read are suggestions for
> improving
> > it.
>
> Mistakes can and will be changed, like the CTRL+V popup in the WYSIWYG,
> which slipped into RC2 but is gone now.
>
> I've read all the emails to the aforementioned feedback address, the
> 750+ pingbacks (not all in English, granted) to the announcement posts,
> all the media coverage, and been involved with the process of this
> particular design for the better part of a year.
>
> If you want I could link you to thirty blogs praising the new design,
> but that doesn't make either of us right or wrong and someone would
> inevitable accuse myself or the dev team of drinking our own kool-aid,
> only paying attention to the positive press, or surrounding ourselves
> with yes men and fanboys. Some people might disagree or not understand
> individual decisions, but have faith based on our previous track record
> that the decisions are for the best.
>
> In reality I tend to read the criticism more carefully than the praise,
> because it often has more nuggets of possible changes. But that doesn't
> mean I'm going to agree with it all.
>
> --
> Matt Mullenweg
> http://ma.tt | http://automattic.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of wp-testers Digest, Vol 37, Issue 150
> *******************************************
>