[wp-hackers] support for custoim post types + custom feilds

Piyush Mishra me at piyushmishra.com
Tue Jun 22 04:49:19 UTC 2010

1+ for core plugins
u dnt need to make a huge speech man english would have done d trick too :P
i am learnin both drupal and wordpress together and what core plugins
seem to me is an attempt to have modules of drupal kinda thing added
to wp also. (its just a layman language remark) IMHO it would b nice
if we have that and can move the best plugins(in terms of reliability,
time between a new wp version being released and the plugin getting
updated, popularity n usability) to core plugins. will help everyone

On 6/22/10, Ash Goodman <ash at thinkinginvain.com> wrote:
>>So, I'm guessing corporate sites don't use WP Super Cache (or any other
>>caching plugin) because it's a plugin, right?
> Citing an exception does not disprove the rule. Citing one example out
> of 10,000 as a means of disregarding my statement isn't just poor
> debating skills, its irrational. I thought this was a place for
> discussion. Or is it only a place for discussion when that discussion
> doesn't challenge your views?
> I would have thought we all have the right to be heard and voice our
> opinions without our opinions being subjected to sarcasm and
> belittling.
> nuff said - onto the meat of the debate:
>> Summarizing what I've read so far:
>> Plugins are for hobbyists. Serious sites don't trust them.
>> Themes are ok, because [unlike plugins?!] their code can be reviewed.
> Nope that's not it at all.
> Let me try to explain what I am saying.
> 1) What type of WordPress user am I referring to?
> I am referring to corporate, government/ 'mission critical' sites
> where unpredictable behavior or site breakage is *not* an option.
> These sites don't tend to use off the shelf themes, they either hire
> someone to build them one from scratch or hire someone to modify one
> for them.
> Like it or not WordPress has outgrown it's usage as *just* a blogging
> platform. More sites today are built as CMS then blogs today. Along
> with this growth has come a change in the WordPress userbase. Its not
> just for hobbyist bloggers anymore. Now it's used in all sorts of
> environments by people who are not qualified to detect one good plugin
> amongst the 1000's available.
> I am not saying most plugins are bad, not at all. I am saying that the
> average end user is not equipped to tell between the good and the bad.
> In such circumstances blanket assumptions get made. Corporate and
> government clients have neither the inclination nor the resources to
> become experts. So the end result: plugins = bad is the assumption
> most arrive at after a few breakage experiences. Like it or not, right
> or not the baby with the bathwater approach is the way these types of
> clients think. They just don't get the 'case by case' mentality
> required to use plugins.
> Like it or not, the average user of WordPress today has no idea what
> constitutes a good plugin and what doesn't. Many of them even think
> the current "it works/it's broken' rating system in the repo is
> 'official' and provides some kind of guarantee.
> 9 out of 10 times a WordPress site breaks (in my experience) it's due
> to a plugin either being poorly written or with conflicting javascript
> libraries of other plugins.
> 2) What do I think about plugins?
> Plugins are brilliant, they are a part of WordPress that makes it
> great. They are a tremendous resource for innovation, experimentation,
> education and community involvement.
> However, because of this, when plugins are taken as a whole, they are
> unreliable and not 'corporate ready'.
> Yes there are exceptions, but I'll bet if you take 10 developers and
> ask them to cite 10 plugins they would recommend to their corporate
> clients as stable/reliable plugins (regardless of function) all 10
> would have a different list. Even we developers cannot always agree
> what plugins are reliable. (Note: I am discussing reliability NOT
> usefulness)
> 3) So what's the problem exactly?
> Plugins can introduce script conflicts, site breakage, security holes,
> and unpredictable behavior. None of this is acceptable within a
> corporate or government website.
> Yes, so can themes. But the users I am referring to have *paid*
> someone a lot of money to build a theme. They are not downloading and
> installing themes from the repository.
> This segment of the WordPress user base is quite large and growing
> larger everyday.
> Plugins also suffer from abandonment. For whatever reason, be it lack
> of time, other interests or what have you plugins can, at any time, be
> abandoned. The average end user does not know how to edit code or
> manage a plugin themselves. Nor do they expect to have to.
> The end result is suddenly a  core feature of your site stops working
> because the developer stopped developing it.
> 4) What exactly am I suggesting
> Nothing new really. Nothing others haven't already suggested. Plugins
> would probably be better labeled as 'community plugins' with a clearly
> stated disclaimer indicating they are not, in any way, guaranteed. The
> 'it works/its broken' compatibility rating system needs to be clearly
> marked as a community effort and not some sort of official stamp of
> reliability as many end users assume it is. Yes a lot of end users do
> think this, it's a commonly held assumption that I have to correct
> with almost every client I deal with.
> I think Core plugins are a good solution. When I said that support for
> custom post types + custom feilds should be core and not a plugin, I
> had not yet thought through all  of the implications of core plugins.
> I have since had a couple of conversations about core plugins with
> other readers of this list (you know who you are) and agree that core
> plugins could be the solution.
> Some functionality is commonplace enough and has high enough demand
> that an official solution would be welcome. Assuming core plugins meet
> the following criteria I think the corporate and government users
> would be happy to use them:
> 1) Guaranteed by WordPress to work with WordPress
> 2) Guaranteed by WordPress to be well maintained and updated and *not*
> subject to abandonment
> 3) Guaranteed by WordPress not to introduce security holes or
> instabilities insofar as the WordPress software and other core plugins
> are concerned.
> 4) Guaranteed by WordPress to be updated in tandem with WordPress so
> that when a new version of WordPress is released core plugins are
> guaranteed to continue working.
> They key word here when talking about corporate or government users is
> 'official'. They are looking for official solutions, they do not trust
> community efforts - yes we all know that that is how WordPress is
> built, but *they* generally speaking don't know or understand that,
> and as a rule, they shouldn't have to.
> What should become a core plugin? I would say that's open to debate
> (and hopefully rational debate). But at a start we could look at
> plugins that have gained traction, that have become popular. Start
> using community plugins as the test bed for new functionality.
> They do not necessarily need to be bundled with WordPress. In fact, if
> keeping WordPress light weight is a goal I could see some
> functionality being taken out of core and rebuilt as a core plugin.
> For example the featured image or new menu management system.
> This could have the added benefit of allowing new functionality to be
> added to WordPress outside of the normal release cycle while still
> allowing that functionality to be 'trusted'. Not saying it's a good
> idea to release things outside of the release cycle, just saying it's
> a possibility.
> Of course all of this is moot if the target market for WordPress is
> developers only. But if WordPress is serious about spurring further
> growth of its user base it's going to have to accept that the needs
> and expectations of said users are changing and will continue to do
> so.
> Should core plugins be a replacement for community plugins? No!
> Community plugins are a vital part of WordPress and I would never want
> to see them removed. But there is no reason the two types of plugins
> cannot and should not coexist.
> What makes me qualified to hold an opinion on this?
> 1) I use WordPress
> 2) I 'own' WordPress, as do we all
> 3) I am able to think and formulate opinions
> 4) WordPress is meant to be about community involvement, I would
> expect that to extend to this list as well.
> 5) I have been using WordPress for more than 5 years
> 6) I have been hacking WordPress, be it just for layouts or for
> functionality for the last 4 years.
> 7) I develop with WordPress professionally and have done so for the
> last 4 years, in fact, for the last two years my company has built
> sites exclusively with WordPress, I actually turn away business that
> is not WordPress
> 8) I have built, through my company, more than 50 sites on WordPress
> in the last 2 years. My clients include everyone from a work at home
> mother of 5, to government agencies, to all kinds of corporate clients
> to SME's to 'Mom n Pop' businesses. All of them have had problems with
> plugins. On average I get 3-4 emails a year per client of the 'Help my
> site if broken variety'. In 90% of cases its down to a plugin they
> recently installed or updated.
> Thanks for listening
> Ash
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Piyush Mishra

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