[wp-hackers] wp-hackers Digest, Vol 71, Issue 112

[Octavian Ristea]

Sorry, I couldn't change the subject when replying. Odd. I'm not sure why
you are trying to build a plugin to handle the new site. I'm sure we can
find an existing free system out there that we can incorporate into the new
site.

-Kinda confused on what you wish to accomplish.

On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 5:28 PM, <wp-hackers-request at lists.automattic.com>wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Using Taxonomy for Users, Comments, Post Meta, etc?
>      (Mike Schinkel)
>   2. Re: Using Taxonomy for Users, Comments, Post Meta, etc? (Otto)
>   3. The problem with Contributions and This Thread (Jacob Santos)
>   4. Re: The problem with Contributions and This Thread (Jane Wells)
>   5. Re: The problem with Contributions and This Thread (Vid Luther)
>   6. Re: The problem with Contributions and This Thread (Jacob Santos)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 09:50:49 -0500
> From: Mike Schinkel <mikeschinkel at newclarity.net>
> Subject: [wp-hackers] Using Taxonomy for Users, Comments, Post Meta,
>        etc?
> To: wp-hackers <wp-hackers at lists.automattic.com>
> Message-ID: <F2A09F3D-9418-49C3-A08D-CCFE6E90A0D7 at newclarity.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm having a discussion over WordPress Answers in the comments for this
> question[1] about the use of the taxonomy system for classifying items other
> than posts such as users, comments, postmeta, etc. I had been thinking it
> was a foregone conclusion that the taxonomy system was designed to be used
> with more than just posts but the fact that someone is making some good
> points to question that logic is making me question it too.
>
> OTOH one of his arguments I still don't agree with is "If there are no
> functions to support the use of taxonomy for items other than posts then
> it's better to create new tables."
>
> Can anyone speak to if 1.) the taxonomy system was actually designed with
> more than posts in mind,  2.) if anyone is using the taxonomy system
> successfully to classify items other than posts, and 3.) if anyone can
> comment on if adding new tables vs. reusing the existing taxonomy tables is
> more appropriate and why?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -Mike
> [1]
> http://wordpress.stackexchange.com/questions/5974/creating-a-custom-admin-panel
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 09:53:34 -0600
> From: Otto <otto at ottodestruct.com>
> Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] Using Taxonomy for Users, Comments, Post
>        Meta, etc?
> To: wp-hackers at lists.automattic.com
> Message-ID:
>        <AANLkTim6mM91+Jq2yX1Vt0BLFoP35AL5UBuTKwNkGs=5 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Taxonomy is generic. It can apply to anything.
>
> Specifically, you can use wp_set_object_terms to assign an integer
> (the object ID) to have a term in a given taxonomy. Similarly, you can
> use wp_get_object_terms to get the data back, and so forth. However,
> all you're really doing is to give an ID number a relationship to a
> term (in a taxonomy). How you interpret that relationship is up to
> you. If you want to use user_id's, then by all means, go for it. I've
> used it for exactly that.
>
> That said, taxonomies are mostly geared towards posts, in the sense
> that a lot of the post query code lets you select based on
> relationships between post ID's and terms. That's the main use case.
> If you want to, say, select comments with a given term on them, then
> you're probably going to be rolling your own SQL for now to select
> those comments.
>
> At wp.org, we use taxonomies to assign users certain terms for the
> purpose of the email subscriptions. When you subscribe to a thread, a
> term created for that thread in a special taxonomy get a relationship
> to the user ID. When it comes time to send an email, a query is done
> to get all the users associated with that term. Similar behavior is
> used for the "tag" subscriptions.
>
> -Otto
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Mike Schinkel
> <mikeschinkel at newclarity.net> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm having a discussion over WordPress Answers in the comments for this
> question[1] about the use of the taxonomy system for classifying items other
> than posts such as users, comments, postmeta, etc. I had been thinking it
> was a foregone conclusion that the taxonomy system was designed to be used
> with more than just posts but the fact that someone is making some good
> points to question that logic is making me question it too.
> >
> > OTOH one of his arguments I still don't agree with is "If there are no
> functions to support the use of taxonomy for items other than posts then
> it's better to create new tables."
> >
> > Can anyone speak to if 1.) the taxonomy system was actually designed with
> more than posts in mind, ?2.) if anyone is using the taxonomy system
> successfully to classify items other than posts, and 3.) if anyone can
> comment on if adding new tables vs. reusing the existing taxonomy tables is
> more appropriate and why?
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > -Mike
> > [1]
> http://wordpress.stackexchange.com/questions/5974/creating-a-custom-admin-panel
> > _______________________________________________
> > wp-hackers mailing list
> > wp-hackers at lists.automattic.com
> > http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 17:09:31 -0600
> From: Jacob Santos <wordpress at santosj.name>
> Subject: [wp-hackers] The problem with Contributions and This Thread
> To: wp-hackers at lists.automattic.com
> Message-ID:
>        <AANLkTim0DuAg3+1xb7B9SQiUO5c37+=811Q6BOcqBWwn at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Thread in Question:
> http://wordpress.org/support/topic/what-should-2011-hold-for-wordpress
>
> The Point In A Nutshell: WordPress is community driven, meaning I write a
> patch and it is either debated, audited, tested, committed or any
> combination. Someone saying, "I want this feature or this feature," has
> never mattered, unless there is a patch or a lead developer jumps on and
> develops the feature. Given the limited amount of lead developers and the
> allocated time they have, much of what goes into WordPress has historically
> been from the community.
>
> The thread is a waste of time, since as a contributor, unless I care about
> what some Joe writes on a thread or what some ticket is in Trac, I'm going
> to do my own thing. This is true even if I write a patch for one of those
> thread features or for some ticket on Trac.
>
> The Problem:
>
> The basis for setting a roadmap is for planning features. If WordPress.org
> is going to continue along the path of planned features, then its release
> cycle will need to be extended or allow for features to incubate until they
> are ready for inclusion in core.
>
> In a community based development, the planned features has been and will
> always be what contributors decide. It is great to say, we want feature A,
> B, and C. The problem, at least from my point-of-view is that saying,
> "Well,
> this isn't on the roadmap, so it isn't going to get in," causes a clash of
> reality. WordPress.org Foundation or Automattic or the Lead Developers want
> feature A, B, C, etc, then have them work on it full time.
>
> Having a roadmap for Lead developers is great, but the development cycle
> requires accepting features from outside the lead developers and roadmap.
>
> Problems I'm Seeing Personally:
>
> * Weekly IRC Chats are limited to Agenda.
>
> I can't count how many times I wanted to bring something up and be told
> that
> I may not. Hello, potential and former contributor speaking here, if I'm
> wanting attention for a feature that has been ignored and is tested and
> commit ready, then where am I supposed to bring this up? On Trac, I'm
> ignored, in WP-Hackers, I'm ignored partly because of the noise and partly
> because very few lead developers participate of any real time to the
> threads.
>
> * Lead Developers for some reason have been limited to a certain scope
> within the development of WordPress.
>
> So basically, I'm relying on a lead developer whom I must receive blessing
> from and must rely on their time, input, and commit to my issue. For me
> personally, I've given up on ever getting my patches in that area
> committed.
> In fact, I'd rather you removed my patches, even the tested and commit
> ready
> ones, because I'm no longer going to be updating or supporting them based
> on
> feedback.
>
> If you want me to contribute, then I need less, "This isn't in my job area,
> therefore I'm not going to help you," and more, "Well this has been tested
> and is ready to go."
>
> Really, it reminds me of my first patch, where I had a hell of time trying
> to get a lead developer to even look at the issue let alone get someone to
> even commit the fix. I was almost never going to contribute to WordPress
> again after that. This time it is even worse, because I'm depending on not
> 5
> to 7 lead developers to find time to look at my patch and commit it, but
> one. One that doesn't appear to be interested and thus, I'm SOL.
>
> * Corporate Attitude and Coordination in Community Driven Development.
>
> Okay, I must say that this appears to work fine in Apache projects, Zend
> Framework. However, I'm seeing similar problems creep up that CodeIgniter
> community was / is having. People are / were leaving that project, because
> their contributions weren't being made into the project fast enough. They
> are solving that in part by splitting the development off in a community
> driven (unstable) and a company driven (stable) branches. Similar, I might
> add to Zend Framework, in that they have an incubation period for new
> components.
>
> The desire to have a community driven development requires the openness to
> accept patches outside the limited scope of planned features. Not only
> limiting to defect fixes, but also enhancements and features. Unless a lead
> developer desires to spend the time working on a feature himself or
> herself,
> then the community will determine what they work on based on variable
> factors and some won't even realize or care that there is a planned list or
> roadmap.
>
> Telling a potential or existing contributor to bugger off will lose points
> and potentially lose contributors.
>
> * Contributors have projects, a life, a job, etc too.
>
> Respecting the time of the contributor also must be weighed as well. I
> realize that lead developers have their own projects, their own time
> commitments, their own life, etc. What needs to be weighed, always, is the
> contributor time factors as well. As it has been since the beginning, the
> time I devoted to WordPress.org has pushed other projects to the wayside. I
> must weigh contributing to WordPress.org verses working on my own web site,
> my own projects. If a patch is brushed aside, my commitment to WordPress is
> diminished. Continue this trend over time, and I will all together stop
> contributing.
>
> * I might be the biggest Jerk on the Earth.
>
> Respect. Learn it, live it.
>
> If I'm being a jerk, it is most often because I'm angry about something. If
> I'm a contributor, then do find out what it is and if my attitude is
> unwarranted, then take appropriate action. If I'm shown respect first and
> foremost no matter how bad I act, then I will shape up or move out. If not,
> then follow Poisonous People and respectfully ask that the person to not be
> part of the community.
>
> Losing one jerk is not a big deal. Not being able to tell who the jerk is a
> problem.
>
> * As a contributor, All I Care About is my patch
>
> This might not be true for the major contributors, but one thing I've
> witnessed triaging Trac is that this should be considered a rule, if it
> isn't already. When there were 3 active lead developers and the patch load
> was heavy and personal features were being worked on, many patches went
> stale. Many original patch contributors moved on after several weeks or
> months.
>
> In a project where there are possibility 2 contributors for every 1 that
> leaves (a hyperbole by the way, it is more or less closer to 1.05 to 1.25),
> meh, it doesn't matter. One leaves and another replaces. That is part of
> what makes WordPress.org great.
>
> * I Should Never Have to Beg
>
> If this needs an explanation, then you fail.
>
> The only time I should need to follow-up on a patch or ticket, is when
> there
> is feedback saying that the patch doesn't work or isn't commit ready with
> some reason why.
>
>
> Jacob Santos
>
> PS: I have been wanting to write this for a long time, but I always feel
> that I'm off-base doing so. My experiences surely is not representative of
> the whole? However, what might have been a minor problem years ago, has in
> my opinion escalated. I have seen others give up being a contributor and
> seen the reasons behind it.
>
> I know Jane Wells means well and I believe she is coming at this from a
> corporate point-of-view. However, I'm surprised at the corporate attitudes.
> Is this a community project and if so, then meritocracy should not be part
> of it or at least have a concise definition for WordPress Foundation.
>
> PSS: It appears being part of the meritocracy does not include dissent and
> being a jerk (if even a little), so if you fall into either one of those
> categories, then you need not apply.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 18:38:33 -0500
> From: Jane Wells <jane at automattic.com>
> Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] The problem with Contributions and This
>        Thread
> To: wp-hackers at lists.automattic.com
> Message-ID: <4D1A74F9.7090606 at automattic.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 12/28/10 6:09 PM, Jacob Santos wrote:
> > The basis for setting a roadmap is for planning features.
> I think you misread the statement. The roadmap is an overall vision for
> the year, priorities etc, not a feature list. Feature lists will be
> decided on a release-by-release basis as they have been in the past
> based on a combination of user demand, lead dev priority, and someone
> being interested in coding it.
>
> > if I'm
> > wanting attention for a feature that has been ignored and is tested and
> > commit ready, then where am I supposed to bring this up?
> Something being tested and commit ready from one person's perspective is
> not always the same as another's. Also, if someone writes a patch that
> serves their needs but not the overall plan for the application, things
> don't just get committed because someone wants them to be. It needs to
> get consensus from the project leads that it's the right thing for the
> overall user base. There are lead devs in teh irc channel almost 24/7.
> The once a week product team meeting with an agenda is not the only time
> to talk to them in irc.
>
> > So basically, I'm relying on a lead developer whom I must receive
> blessing
> > from and must rely on their time, input, and commit to my issue.
> Yes. That is the structure of the WordPress core development process
> right now.
>
> > In fact, I'd rather you removed my patches, even the tested and commit
> ready
> > ones, because I'm no longer going to be updating or supporting them based
> on
> > feedback.
> The whole point of community development is that many people contribute
> to patches and one person isn't responsible for a patch or feature
> indefinitely.
>
> >   If a patch is brushed aside, my commitment to WordPress is
> > diminished. Continue this trend over time, and I will all together stop
> > contributing.
> You said in your last big post that you didn't intend to contribute
> anymore. Have you changed your mind? It seems like you have been making
> this threat the whole two years I've known you. I hate to see anyone
> leave the project, but if it's been making you unhappy for that long,
> then yeah, I would completely understand you finding another project to
> spend your time on. Life is short. Too short to spend a lot of time
> working on something that just makes you angry all the time.
>
> > If I'm shown respect first and
> > foremost no matter how bad I act, then I will shape up or move out.
> You know what? No. It's up to EVERYONE to show respect. Take
> responsibility for this. Saying people who are working crazy hours
> should be go out of their way to appease one person "no matter how bad I
> act" means you think you are more important than everyone else. Respect
> begets respect. Everyone needs to be polite, not just the lead devs.
> > I know Jane Wells means well and I believe she is coming at this from a
> > corporate point-of-view.
> I'm not sure what exactly about me you find corporate. I'm a non-profit
> girl since way back in my teens and the lead devs all call me a hippie,
> not inaccurately.
> > Is this a community project and if so, then meritocracy should not be
> part
> > of it
> The whole point of a meritocracy is that it allows the best like-minded
> talent to rise at the pace of ability rather than waiting for some
> pre-determined schedule (like the corporate world). That is the very
> definition of community. Not every community is a fit for every person.
> Where we can improve processes (and we all know there's a lot of room
> for improvement), we want to. But we're not going to just start
> haphazardly committing every patch that someone asks to have committed.
> That would ruin the application. The whole point of having leaders (in
> this case, lead developers) is for them to lead.
>
> Jane
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 18:47:49 -0600
> From: Vid Luther <vid at zippykid.com>
> Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] The problem with Contributions and This
>        Thread
> To: wp-hackers at lists.automattic.com
> Message-ID: <4D1A8535.7030908 at zippykid.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I'm adding to this thread a question and a comment..
>
> first is the question, will we be able to do +1 on specific things
> people have recommended?
>
> I'd like to just add +1 to some of Mark Jaquith's list.. specifically no
> more php4, better unit tests and some level of CI..
>
> having better unit tests may make it easier for people to commit
> patches.. that's not the goal here, but an unintended side effect.
>
>
> comment:
>
> the problem with meritocracies, is that sometimes "merit" isn't clearly
> defined, so what/who "holds merit" is subjective, it's well intentioned,
> but just don't get conveyed properly. In other words, meritocracies work
> on ego, ego can and almost always insulted, sometimes deservingly,
> sometimes not.
>
>
>
>
> I'd like everyone here to read:
>
> http://onstartups.com/tabid/3339/bid/34321/14-Ways-To-Be-A-Great-Startup-CEO.aspx
>
> if they haven't already.
>
> One of the things here, is about the uncanny ability to say "No".
>
> Jane and the core developers have done a very good job of that, we may
> not like it, but in the end, we have a product that we love 6 days of
> the week. Let's not forget that, and let's not let our egos get in the
> way. Some functionality may not make it into core, but usually it can be
> made into a plugin, and you can have the functionality.. and that's what
> we should be thankful for.
>
> I've made a ton of money off the work of the core developers, I may not
> like some of their responses, or the tone of their responses, I may not
> respond the same way as they do.. but I am mindful of their
> contributions, and their efforts.
>
> As the year ends, I hope I can contribute in a positive way, either to
> the core, or to the community,  I'm sure I'll piss people off, I'm sure
> I'll write blog posts that some of you may disagree with, but the end
> goal for all of us is the same.. make it easy for people to get their
> content published, and make it easy for people to consume their content.
>
> Happy 2011.
>
> Thanks for the fish.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:28:15 -0600
> From: Jacob Santos <wordpress at santosj.name>
> Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] The problem with Contributions and This
>        Thread
> To: wp-hackers at lists.automattic.com
> Message-ID:
>        <AANLkTik9CbtvD9WNWvt1D4hO=0ZNCQb2rBB=zm68UbGf at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> You can not say this is a community driven project and then completely
> ignore the community aspect of the phrase. Is the project 5% community
> driven, 10%, 20% or more? I also see contradictions and logical
> inconsistencies in several of the statements and direction of the WordPress
> development. I went over the WordPress Decision presentation by Jane Wells
> at Portland and when you have a hierarchy where the contributors of patches
> are so far down as to be irrelevant, then yes, you do have a corporate
> process. One of the examples itself was one of a company and I quote, "You
> can't walk into a Microsoft meeting and expect to be heard." Well, the
> quote
> is not verbatim.
>
> You are making this personal and I suspect you are not viewing this
> appropriately. The problem has been and I suspect always will be the time
> to
> get a patch in to core. I should also clarify that feedback is more
> important than simply getting a patch in core. If you not only hear
> nothing,
> but also not have your patch committed. This is not limited to me and if
> you
> look at the history, there are plenty of potential contributors that never
> were given the chance to be more than causal contributors. I have said in
> the past and continue to say, that the turn around for patches needs to be
> improved. As a user of WordPress, my desire is to see WordPress grow and
> continue to be improved.
>
> If the statement, "Well, join another community or project." Then the
> statement should be clarified to mean, "Join a project that actually cares
> about its contributors and gives feedback on patches in a timely manner."
> This statement should NEVER be uttered by an official of the project and
> the
> fact that you and others continue to defend and repeat the statement may
> continue the downward trend of fewer contributors. If the desire is to have
> mainly leads developing WordPress, then I believe you are moving in the
> right path.
>
> Okay, I am most likely wrong and I hope that I am. I seriously do. There
> are
> areas where patches are consistency committed in a timely manner and
> patches
> will probably continue to be made in those areas.
>
> I am not wrong in that the current development process increases the
> difficulty of getting patches in core. It is obvious that there is nothing
> I
> can say at this point to convince you or any of the leads to change the
> process, so I'm simply going to disappear until I have further proof for my
> point.
>
>
> Jacob Santos
>
> PS: I did stop contributing around WordPress 2.8 and only contributed a few
> patches since that time. Of course, this last development cycle, I
> contributed around 7 patches, of which, 0 went into WordPress. I didn't
> even
> get any feedback other then, "It is not my area."
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers at lists.automattic.com
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>
>
> End of wp-hackers Digest, Vol 71, Issue 112
> *******************************************
>



-- 
Untill you realize you are worthy of more, you will be content with less.