[wp-forums] Titles/Promotions/Labels

[Podz]

Lorelle VanFossen wrote:
> I personally was stunned when, upon "registering" I was now a "member" of 
> the Forum.  I carry a LOT of agenda over the word "member".
I don't, and it must not be assumed that others do.
You say that to be a 'member' should be earned. Well how about the 
flip-side that when someone joins and sees 'member' they feel that they 
are not being excluded through terminology ?
I could not care less what I'm called on the forums. I have been there 
almost daily for over 18 months now and I didn't join to do anything 
else but help where I could. You could make that label what you like and 
I'll still come back and help.
Those that help with the goal of a label should - quite honestly - get lost.

 >> As a long time "member" of organizations, and one time  member or on
 >> the board of directors for 26 profit and non-profit organizations, 
 >> too much experience - recruitment nd avoiding attrition is the MOST
 >> important job next to fundraising.
I was a nurse for 18 years. I did the recruitment and selection. I built 
teams of people. I created good and positive atmospheres. and I watched 
the British NHS introduce the grading system which destroyed all the 
goodwill and team playing that had previously existed. But this 
discussion is not about who has been sat where and for how long. It is 
about the forums. And if you do want to make it a time issue, I've been 
there since Jan 15, 2004.


> As a long time "member" of organizations
When did WP suddenly become an /organisation/ ?
I do not see it as such AT ALL. It almost seems that because we now have 
this word /organisation/ being bandied around that we must have a 
structure to go with it. Or do the names come first and from that the 
overall term ?
WP is NOT an organisation.
Def:
"1 a : the act or process of organizing or of being organized b : the 
condition of being organized"
I can see a case for Codex being in need of organising.
I cannot see any need for irc / forums / mailing lists / anything else 
to be organised.

> Without volunteers, nothing gets done.
"The most valuable donation you can give is your time, be it on the 
support forums, coding, or writing documentation."
I saw that. Dozens of others did too. And we all started doing what we 
could. Why ? because we could, because we wanted to.
Sometime in March 2004, a forum member called Southsou posted a request 
of how he would like CSS to be 'taught'. I thought "I can do that" - so 
I did. Around the same time, we had a flood of people wanting to know 
how to ftp and chmod. Cena wondered about a guide - so I did one.
My behaviour is no different to when spam started and Kitten wrote her 
plugins, the work drDave does, the work that many many other coders do 
and the work that Ryan and Matt do on top of their day jobs.
You are implying that nothing has been done and that this labelling will 
remedy the situation. That is plainly wrong.

You can call me anything but when I answer forums questions, or when I 
answer emails - I had another 5 this morning which I answered before 
this - I am still volunteering. Call it what you will - but I'm not 
being paid.

> Members paid dues which entitled them to 
> specific benefits and rewards. Volunteers were members who gave of their 
> time, money, and energy beyond the basic dues to help the organization 
> continue.

Irrelevant. Everyone here is the same. No-one pays dues.

> Whether or not you personally believe there should be some kind of 
> hierarchy or class structure, it is CRITICAL that WordPress acknowledge 
> it's volunteers.

Based on what model ?

 > Give 'em all a t-shirt

I'm sure Matt would - but money comes into that equation. By this same 
token of you wanting labels, then how about all those that have donated 
also get a label ? We'd need one for $10 or less, $50 or less, $100 or 
less and $100 up. For a start. After all, without them there would be no 
server would there ? No server, no forum. They volunteered their cash 
did they not ?

The moment we start labelling people two things also happen:
- there is a perception from others that those with labels have power.
- there is the risk that those with labels think they have the power.
Both those scenarios are damaging to WP.

 > publicly or individually thank them

Matt does. I cannot abide oft-repeated messages of thanks - they become 
meaningless - so I am glad that we don't get a weekly blog of "Cheers 
guys ! Keep up the good work !" - it's blogging, not evangelism.

> have a conference or giant annual meetup

Cash. cash. cash. Maybe some labels for donators would drag some more in ?

> or give them the title of volunteer or whatever silly title you want to come up with.

Why not 'member' ? It's inclusive, it's friendly.

> People continue because they get some kind of feedback from the process.  A 
> simple thank you is enough for some, or the joy of helping another, or 
> helping the code develop....or recognition that whatever you do, even if 
> it is a small thing like stuffing envelopes (metaphorically), earns the 
> title of volunteer.

Says you.

> People are already calling themselves by their group association.  
> Hackers are hackers, developers are developers, docs are the 
> Documenation team, #wordpress - well, they are still working on what 
> they are, but there are a few who want to be "something", so let them 
> develop the process of cohesion.

Okay ... I actually think this is all starting to be smoke and mirrors.
"They are so you must be" type stuff being whispered in ears. If just 
TALKING about this has raised such issues, can you imagine what it will 
be like IF it went public and the changes were made ? There is NO 
control out there, regardless of how much you think there may be.

At meetup on Wednesday you said:
Jul 20 22:41:53 <relle>	And the volunteers are debating having a "label" 
for their status.

No - that is wrong. Out of 25,000 people about 5 of us are.
So you are telling those in IRC one thing, then you post here that they 
are having a debate. Smoke. Mirrors. Unwanted.

 > If we title "ALL" of these folks as
> Volunteers, then we will have Volunteer hacker, Volunteer developers, 
> Forum Volunteers, Documentation Volunteers, #wordpress Volunteers, and 
> so on. ALL VOLUNTEERS, all even, equal, but titled. As volunteers, all 
> have a voice in what happens with WordPress.

And for some reason the 'member' prefix is something you seem to have a 
major problem with ?

> The REAL reason behind the push to title volunteers as volunteers is the 
> promotion of WordPress is a VOLUNTEER organization, run by volunteers, 
> developed by volunteers and needing volunteers to continue. If it is not 
> and is moving towards a corporate structure

And who are we to say it should not ? Is this a movement so that if Matt 
decided to found WordPress Int. Corp. someone could jump about yelling 
stuff about volunteers ? So damn what ?
For me, Matt could sell the whole damn thing and do what he wished - but 
I'd still do what I want which is helping people.

> WordPress needs to work together as a team and team members need to know 
> who the other team members are, who the key decision makers are, and the 
> public needs to know who they are too.

And who precisely is wandering around looking confused ?

> I see the "structure" on the forum and the organization very simply.
> 1. Maven/Moderator/Coordinator - the person overseeing the project's 
> coordination - the one you go to when there is a problem
> 2. Volunteer - an active contributor
> 3. Member - you signed up, this is your title.  Consider yourself a 
> member of WordPress. Do with it what you want. Benefits of membership: 
> free downloads and support for life.

'an active contributor'
Some people have posted to the forums with a problem. But that problem 
has directly lead to new thoughts and new code from others. That 
therefore makes them an active contributor - yet you would have them 
simply as a member.
As soon as you start playing with words, you will lose. There are many 
more people out there capable of wordplay.

> the process. Without volunteer effort, WordPress will die.
Still going strong without these labels...

> If they spam, vandal, or cause problems, then block them, as is 
> currently done. No longer a member OR volunteer.  Set up simple 
> guidelines and make it easy to participate.

You will not be aware - I am, as is Matt because we have been around 
long enough - that if we had had these guidelines in place from day one, 
then certain people who have contributed a great deal not only to the 
forums but also to WP would have been banned from the forums. I am 
probably in that group too.
So you would ban us.
Who exactly is judge, jury and executioner here ?
Or would we have different rules for different people ?
But you can't, so that's not fair.
Oh ..... tricky ......

> Labeling volunteers is going to happen. They are the life blood of the 
> organization's continued existence.

There you go again with this "organisation" thing. For as long as you 
see WP having that label, you will have this problem.

I wrote here yesterday what I can and cannot do: 
http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Podz for those people that wondered.

I will state my position clearly:
I am against the introduction of labels because I do not feel that the 
situations they will generate can do anything but harm. Not only to 
WordPress, but also to the forums and individuals once the flames start.

And my label ? I honestly do not care. Really - change it, take it way, 
leave it the same. it will not change what I do one bit.

Podz