[wp-hackers] PHPMailer was a mistake
computerguru at neosmart.net
Sat Sep 15 22:04:23 GMT 2007
I think you misunderstood what I said:
I personally do not believe that switching to Swifty will open any
holes or break much code (I'm using it now via a totally overloaded
function), I'm just taking the worst-case scenario.
Let me make this to the point:
Besides SMTP, what do we gain by switching to Swifty that makes it worthwhile?
(seeing as SMTP can be added in 5 minutes to PHPMailer)
On 9/16/07, Jacob Santos <dragonwing at dragonu.net> wrote:
> Damn, I woke up and said to myself, "I didn't really hit send did I?" A
> no harshness reply.
> Computer Guru wrote:
> > I think that's a very important point Peter raises.
> > In reality, developers aren't supposed to do what's "right" assuming
> > they're starting from scratch at this very moment, but what's right
> > for the project as a whole and its users too - keeping in mind where
> > you started and where you are now.
> Yeah, I would say that you should never refactor legacy code. Right? I
> don't think so, the argument is whether PHPMailer should be replaced
> with Swift Mailer and while a plugin could easily be made and packaged
> internal or external of WordPress, I believe firmly that it should be
> packaged internally, because it would be used more if it was packaged
> internally than externally. It would also keep Plugin authors from
> having to package it themselves and with the edge case of having two or
> more plugins that have packaged Swift Mailer in the distance future.
> Developers should look to the future for where development is heading.
> I'm not saying go crazy and change the project every time something new
> comes out. Hell, in a recent example, I didn't want to switch from
> Gallery 2 to Coppermine because of the support I would have to do for
> Coppermine, but it offered every feature. I just cried every time I had
> to look through the code. I mean that change, if it has clear advantages
> to the project would mean work that wouldn't have to be done.
> WordPress could easily be refactored to use Swift Mailer, the only
> changes would be adding the library files and changing the default
> wp_mail code to use Swift Mailer instead.
> > Like Windows or not, ... something other operating systems at the time
> > did not do and it came back to haunt them.
> Backwards compatibility doesn't have to be sacrificed, except for some
> of the more advanced plugins which may use PHPMailer class instead of
> Swift Mailer. Research would have to be done for those people, but if
> you give enough time, they'll have a fix in a short period.
> You do know that I'm crazy enough to have started exactly what you said
> WordPress shouldn't. However, I believe helping with WordPress would
> improve my skills with working with legacy code, which I lack.
> The issue with Swift Mailer replacing PHPMailer has never been, "If we
> had built WordPress today..." I bought that up in a tangent to prove my
> point and even then my point was that code should be written so that
> future changes don't come back to bite you. Excusing one paradigm
> because it doesn't match yours is not reasonable development.
> > Well, we're not and therefore there is no easy answer. Just like
> > fishing, you have to reel it in some, and let it go loose some. You
> > can't overhaul all the code just because something better is out
> > there, nor can you ignore it all either.
> I'm not saying, overhaul all of the code. The change shouldn't be more
> than a few additional lines and perhaps an options table like some of
> the plugins offer for adding SMTP or sendmail configuration.
> What Peter and Matt want to do is worse. Not only are they ignoring it,
> they want to rewrite what is already in Swift Mailer to their
> "standards". Okay, perhaps I'm being arrogant since Matt does have
> something I don't, a web application that a hell of a lot of people use
> (and love). That still doesn't mean that everything that they write is
> I'm saying that in my educated opinion, time shouldn't be wasted on
> adding SMTP support to PHPMailer, when it wouldn't (most likely) hurt
> anything to use Swift Mailer or include Swift Mailer plugin by default
> > With regards to PHPMailer, the real question we should be asking
> > ourselves isn't if Switfy is a better library than it or if PHPMailer
> > really is dead. Rather we should be asking what we would *LOSE*
> > switching from PHPMailer and what we would *GAIN* and comparing the
> > differences.
> Lose: Nothing to the core of WordPress. Only a few plugins, might be
> affected, but given enough time, like WordPress version 2.4 or 2.5, they
> would be able to change over.
> Gain: SMTP support, Sendmail support, load balancing support for those
> dedicated servers that send a whole lot of mail.
> > As it currently stands:
> > The only thing actually *missing* from PM is SMTP support.
> > We stand to break some stuff and open a whole can of worms by
> > switching to Swifty.
> Not really, but I'll do a code audit, if only to prove that one of us is
> wrong, but I'm sure it won't be me. If I'm wrong, I'll be sure to let
> you know.
> > Keeping in mind that anyone who wants Swifty can install a plugin (as
> > I have done), _AND_ that it's almost trivial to add proper SMTP
> > support to PHPMailer, I think the LOGICAL and UNBIASED answer is to
> > just give adding SMTP support to PHPMailer a shot and see how it goes.
> Yeah. As someone who has written something that already existed in
> something else, you would merely be wasting your time, as I did. The
> only thing you would gain is some added insight, but if you already have
> that, then there is no point.
> > I LOVE object-orientation. I use and recommend Swifty in my own (PHP)
> > projects. But I love and understand WordPress too, and the right thing
> > to do ATM, regardless of which library is "better" per-say, is to add
> > SMTP to PHPMailer and go from there... IMHO of course.
> I *LOVE* OOP too. It is sweet! At the moment, yes, Swift Mailer
> shouldn't be added to WordPress 2.3. Swift Mailer is better, because
> there are facts to back it up. And the old argument comes up. No, it
> wouldn't be logical to add something to a library when another library
> already has that.
> Would you rewrite Zend_Controller, because you didn't like how it did X?
> I would hope not. If you wish to extend the functionality, how would you
> continue doing that? Would you add more methods or would you create a
> new class with the functionality?
> > If we open this particular can of worms, there is no end to it. Sure,
> > switching to Swifty may not break that much code and may not pose a
> > security vulnerability of any sorts (not that I know that for fact),
> > but what comes next?
> Yes, add FUD to the discussion, that'll help your argument. I would say
> that if anything, the developer using the library should take the
> precautions, even if there weren't any.
> Nothing. The problem that was in the original thread was if Swift Mailer
> could be used instead. If we stick to that, then I won't go any further.
> I care not at this moment whether HTML Purifier is used or Zend
> Framework is used, or if CakePHP was used. It matters not, my argument
> is merely the lack of giving something a second thought because you
> don't agree with its appearance and where its heading.
> If this were a perfect world, all development would have already
> succeeded to PHP5, but I'm an optimist. This discussion next year, might
> be a little bit different. I believe that once developers have grasped
> the sexiness of PHP5's SPL, PDO, Filter, DateTime (this one is sweet!),
> etc that we'll all be on the same page.
> I should have stated and I'm not sure if I did at one point, is that
> ultimately I have no say. I can only piss at the wind for all of the
> power I have in the direction of WordPress. However, I believe at least
> I can call out what I perceive to be inaccurate and add my reason to the
> discussion. The only opinion that matters is that of Matt, westi, Ryan,
> etc. I feel my job at the very least is to add truth, where I can to the
> argument and try to pull some developers to my side. Even then, the
> developer would have to see for themselves.
> > WP has managed to strike a balance all these years, now is not the time to stop.
> What balance? WordPress is simple and gets the job done for the end
> user. Its plugin model gets the job done for the developer. In this
> discussion, it would be helping the core developers as they wouldn't
> have to maintain PHPMailer any longer. A win-win situation, but I can't
> figure out why this is a big issue.
> > Just like switching to PDO is out of the question ATM simply because
> > we don't NEED it for WP to survive and the current implementation is
> > suiting us just fine (more or less, all things considered), I think
> > it's the same for Swifty.
> I had a discussion of PDO with someone, I forget who. I realized
> something about application development is that you are right. WordPress
> doesn't need PDO to survive, since it duplicates, in part its
> functionality. It could make developers lives easier, but SQL would
> still have to be rewritten to match the change. The best way to handle
> that? I don't know.
> Once WordPress reaches PHP 5 status, then $wpdb can use an instance of
> PDO. Until then, it does make sense to continue support of the DB Access
> object. However, this is only because PDO is PHP 5 only, Swift Mailer is
> PHP4 and PHP5, therefore the same argument doesn't hold true.
> > Hell, if you *really* want, ship a Swifty plugin with WordPress and
> > have it disabled by default. Let it overwrite the entire mailer class,
> > and have fun.
> I agree. The current Swift Mailer plugins should be looked at for
> inclusion of WordPress 2.4. The plugin that needs it can always
> automatically enable it, if they need to.
> Peter Westwood wrote:
> > On 15 Sep 2007, at 07:36, Jacob Santos wrote:
> > WordPress is designed to be easy to use and install for end-users.
> > Therefore we have to support the installed base of software
> > (mysql/php/etc) not what the "manufacturers" of this software say we
> > should support - in $dayjob we have learnt this the hardway our
> > customers do not have the money to upgrade to the latest and greatest
> > version of windows - therefore even though Microsoft may not support a
> > Windows version we need to support our customers in the best possible
> > way.
> > We should only ever deprecate support for a version of PHP / mysql on
> > technical reasons - this is the kind of sound technical judgement we
> > as a development community have to take.
> Yes, based on sound technical judgement. Not, completely ignoring change
> based on, "Well, it has too many files, and supports PHP5." Sound
> technical judgment would be to actually test the library, see what
> actually breaks, compared to what is broken in the current library. My
> argument is that the benefits of Swift Mailer was completely ignored
> based on these assumptions.
> I suspect WordPress is going to support PHP4 far outside the day that
> PHP4 official support is dropped. Okay, I'm not a developer working on
> WordPress, so I don't care what the developers choose to support or not.
> What I do care about, is if I'm going to use it and have a problem, what
> will I have to do to fix it. Sure, I could easily write a plugin, and
> I've done that specifically for using HTML Purifier. No big deal, I just
> didn't use Kses, because it gave me problems.
> Yes, perhaps you are correct that if the issue is an edge case, that
> developers shouldn't take the time to "fix" the issue. If this was a
> dropped case, then what argument would be given when PHP4 development
> support is dropped and how many hours were put into adding SMTP support
> to PHPMailer? I say, that since Swift Mailer offers everything we need,
> plus more, we only need to use what WordPress core needs and offer the
> rest to the developer.
> >> While WordPress maintains its ease for end users, it is terrible,
> >> aside from the plugin implementation, for new developers. Tell me
> >> then, external libraries are for the purpose of applications to use
> >> and so that the application doesn't have to implement those features
> >> themselves. I would say that if you were to compare LOC of Swift
> >> Mailer and WordPress, WordPress would still be massive.
> >> What am I saying? WordPress goes so far as to create a PHP 4
> >> Exception class, that can't be handled as an exception. I suppose to
> >> get ready for a PHP 5 move in some distance future, but it is
> >> "interesting."
> > So all the OO Code written in C in the Linux Kernel is just wrong is
> > it. Using the features of the language in a way which fits in with
> > your programming paradigm is sound development practise.
> That isn't my argument. My point is recreation of the wheel. That and
> I've solved this particular problem with only passing an array, since if
> you are passing an error, except an error. The benefit of real
> Exceptions is that if they aren't caught, they are thrown and it would
> come up as an big error. A big error that would give you a clue as to
> what happened.
> Error handling is error handling, if you pass the error by integer,
> string, array, or object, it is pretty much the same technique. Perhaps
> it is future proofing, as when PHP 5 support is added, the class can be
> thrown. If it extends Exception at that point, then it might make more
> sense, after I've thought about it. The shot I made was low and I take
> it back that line, but I maintain the previous paragraph.
> > From what I know HTML Purifier and KSES don't do exactly the same
> > thing - the biggest problem in switching to HTML Purifier over KSES is
> > proving that it doesn't open any security holes. You don't change
> > something that isn't broken.
> How do you know that Kses doesn't have security holes? HTML Purifier
> runs tests against XSS attack cheat sheet and passes most of them. The
> added benefits of HTML Purifier, is that the WordPress balancing
> function would be obsolete and no longer would need to be maintain. I
> think that is a plus, unless the function is absolutely perfect.
> However, HTML Purifier is still being maintained and extended.
> They do actually do the same thing, except HTML Purifier doesn't need an
> extra function to balance tags.
> > As someone who spends all day at $dayjob writing highly OO code I
> > don't agree with you here - once of the biggest mistakes that nieve OO
> > developers make is to spilt there code into too many classes.
> Yes, that would be accurate as it would break the "You're not going to
> need it" Extreme Programming paradigm. However, to be clear I was saying
> that once you reached the point that the methods you are adding, meet a
> different purpose than the class, it is time to make a new one. In my
> experience with writing highly OO code, I would say this is the best
> explanation or rule to live by.
> Planning would create a better class structure and maybe the Swift
> Mailer did or did not do this originally. However, with v3, the
> developer had specific feedback on problems and solved those sets of
> problems. It does not mean WordPress is faced with similar problems, but
> third party developers that work with WordPress might benefit with the
> > Classes need a purpose - creating more just to split out the code does
> > not make good OO practise.
> > If I was to sit down and design an OO model for sending email then I
> > can see myself coming up with the following class structure:
> > A Class to represent an EMail - accessors and mutators for all the
> > common parts of an email - To/From/CC/Subject/Body/HTML
> > Body/Attachments etc.
> > (If i wanted to process incoming emails then I would ensure this class
> > could successfully parse as well as generate emails)
> Which Swift Mailer does and PHPMailer does not. I would have rather this
> be the case, but my argument is also that to do so for PHPMailer would
> be to take away what Swift Mailer already offers. If you compare what it
> would take to get PHPMailer to the standards of Swift Mailer, it would
> be insane.
> > In my first design I suspect that sending and email would just be a
> > case of calling a method on the email itself.
> > If I wanted to enhance this design and abstract away the sending then
> > I would probably create an interface for mail transfer and create
> > implementors of these for the transfer methods I had in mind - e.g.
> > mail(),smtp etc.
> > This doesn't lead me to anywhere near the number of classes provided
> > by swiftmailer.
> This is because Swift Mailer has been in development for longer than the
> week or two (well, it might take it shorter amount of time, but testing
> and debugging you know is included) it would take for you to complete
> your project. Swift Mailer has been in developer for at least/almost a
> year. Therefore it has had more feedback then your mental project and
> from that has improved on this base system.
> The author of Swift Mailer is not some noob, and is more knowledgeable
> than me. If you put your knowledge of OOP above mine, then at least he
> is at your level. Why argue with me that his project doesn't meet your
> standards? Look at his first version and his current requirements and
> see for yourself if this project isn't something worthy of inclusion.
> Who knows, it might infect other OO developers to follow down a similar
> development style, once they get used to it of course.
> >>> Peter Westwood wrote:
> >>>> For me the things that turn me off SwiftMailer over PHPMailer are
> >>>> from a quick look at it:
> >>>> 1. The number of files - this increases the chance of someone
> >>>> breaking there install with a dodgy ftp transfer.
> >>>> 2. PHP4 support is being dropped so by next year we will be in the
> >>>> same place we are now - supporting the mailer ourselves
> >>>> 3. SwiftMailer is designed for mass-mailing PHP applications - not
> >>>> something required in the core
> >>>> 4. SwiftMailer requires configuring with an smtp server - it
> >>>> doesn't use mail() which means we have to add more options to the
> >>>> admin which must be configured - giving a slower install (mail is
> >>>> sent during install)
> >>>> For me, especially once you take 2 into account, we are better
> >>>> staying with PHPMailer now - if we can make that work better than
> >>>> mail() for 90% of our users then we will be in the right place -
> >>>> the last 10% will realistically be difficult to support and better
> >>>> suited to a wp_mail replacement plugin.
> >>>> westi
> >> Short Version:
> >> 1. If this were true, then there would be issues with many more web
> >> applications.
> > This is a problem - our user base have trouble uploading files - this
> > is something we have to be aware of and need to include in our
> > decision making process.
> They must have a hell of a time uploading Gallery 2 and "real" web
> applications. I think it is a user error, than a FTP one. Perhaps PEAR
> would be a better deployment model? They would only need to do two or
> three lines on the command prompt, which you can give them. I'm not
> being sarcastic, seriously, PEAR as a deployment model would be
> wonderful, unless the user doesn't have access to shell and the host
> didn't enable PEAR.
> I'm fortunate enough to not have this problem, because my host is
> awesome. However, like I said, the only time I've came across this is
> when the FTP server didn't support Passive mode. Perhaps, you should let
> them know and see if this is the problem.
> >> 2. This is invalid because not only is PHP 4 support being dropped
> >> for Swift Mailer, but development of PHP4 is being dropped next year.
> > As I said above - we want to support our user base - not alienate them
> > - when PHP5 is the standard for webhosts then we can consider dropping
> > PHP4 support - until then there is no technical reason to do so.
> Name a web host that doesn't give you PHP 5. Even Godaddy hosting
> supports them, with an single .htaccess line. The problems are more with
> dedicated servers, and with those you have the choice between installing
> PHP5 and PHP4, so I would exclude dedicated servers from the list.
> There is because they would still have the older versions, which would
> work on PHP4 on PHP5, but more importantly on PHP4. If they needs were
> met, then what is the issue? Security? I'm not saying don't maintain the
> older package, just don't dismiss something because its future paradigm
> is PHP5 and you don't like PHP5. Change is coming, whether developers
> want it to or not.
> >> 3. Not really. It can be used to easily solve the mass mailing
> >> problem that plagues mail(), but it can easily be used for a
> >> replacement for PHPMailer and mail().
> >> 4. Wrong. Swift Mailer includes three major mailing techniques:
> >> sendmail, SMTP, and mail(). Two others are for load balancing, try
> >> that with PHPMailer.
> > So it does - but why does the simple example code not use mail() then
> > - afterall that would be the simplest way of using SwiftMailer and
> > require the least code.
> You ignored the part where I mentioned the problem that plagues mail().
> With Swift Mailer, you can easily apply any one of the three in one line
> or you can test for SMTP settings, Sendmail settings, and fall back to
> mail with a simple if ... elseif ... else block.
> I don't know what it would take to do the same for PHPMailer, but my
> continued argument is that it isn't worth wasting the time adding it to
> >> I would not take your number 2 argument into consideration and not
> >> because I prefer to develop using PHP 5, but because PHP 4 is dieing
> >> and will soon be dead. Therefore we should stick with a crappy mail()
> >> replacement until you decide that enough is enough and we should use
> >> a real class library that actually doesn't suck?
> > If we were to start WordPress developement now then PHP5 would
> > probably be the way to go - we could write something much more OO
> > (like Habari maybe ;-))
> I looked at the Habari code, good stuff, but from an developers
> perspective, probably wasn't worth it. To get where WordPress is now, it
> would require many man hours. Good luck to them, but while I like their
> paradigm, I'll be more willing to switch to S9Y and more my resources to
> helping that web app. I'm not yet at that point, but my employers have a
> lot of love for WordPress and it would require that I do a massive
> amount of mod_rewrite to keep my link structure. Not going to happen at
> this point.
> > Our roots are PHP4, we have endusers running on PHP4 - we don't want
> > to alienate them or hold them to ransom.
> > westi
> No one is saying you have too. Swift Mailer at this point does in fact
> support PHP4, therefore there would be no issue.
> Jacob Santos
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